tv Cross Talk RT July 18, 2014 5:29pm-6:01pm EDT
this is changing the world lights now. old pictures posts long distances from around the globe in the book to dump. washington well it's a mess. to add to the list. is a. candidate for perceived going to actually back to doesn't do too much for ad revenue my own tech agriculture giant keeps on a seventy six year old american farmer in studio fallout do you think this is going to create for the cia do you think this is what's triggering a great america is the largest economy in the world it's also the largest debtor nation in the history of the world breaking the set is mostly an alternative to the status quo but what might the real alternatives points to working for the american
of fortune and stalemate the harder the western backed regime in kiev assaults to resistance in the east the more the resistance is able to push back washington support of a military solution is flagging as well as pushing goes popularity. cross-talk the ongoing crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest richard white's in washington he is a senior fellow and director of the center for political military analysis at the hudson institute also in washington we have brian becker he is the national coordinator for the answer coalition and in london we crossed alexander me curious he is a writer on legal affairs and an analysts are joining cross talk rules in effect as usual i mean you can jump in anytime you want and i very much appreciated alexander i understand the out of the onslaught in the gaza still goes on and there's limited media resources in the world but what's going on in ukraine we now have to be the most unreported important story in the world absolutely and this is been so for
months i mean we've had a terrible violence in the eastern ukraine cities blockaded electricity supplies cut off shelling of residential quarters use of multiple rocket launchers against. populated areas the most terrible egregious war crimes and if that one was following the news entirely from the western media we would hardly know any of that was happening brian what accounts for that there because the regime in their fortunes or well they're going south and going south real fast maybe it's just a phase ok maybe it's just a phase but nonetheless they've experienced some very serious military reversals in the east and we have a lot of defections leaving equipment behind and we also have according to multiple sources up to a half a million people refugees coming into russia again it's not being reported well i
agree with you there couldn't be a more under reported important story as you put it then this story i mean when you think about it a half a million refugees fierce fighting in cities that have been historically at peace a kind of civil war and you have nato forces coming in egging on the. government arming them are using it as a device to fasten ukraine's historic relationship with nato in the long term and if you took a poll here in washington d.c. the nation's capital and asked any fifty or one hundred group persons what's going on in ukraine i think only one or two would be able to tell you because that's not the story in the media the only story in the media is how president obama is getting tough with vladimir putin in russia for their so-called imperial ambitions in the ukraine that's the story i mean it is a complete propaganda effort and has nothing to do with news why perhaps the news is sensationalist maybe gaza gets the momentary attention but overall this is
a propaganda machine and so they may choose not to cover it as the u.s. carries out again i say a very failed policy in the ukraine but a policy that's caused immense human suffering richard you know from over on this side of the pond and i'm going to be a bit facetious but there's something to it from the russian side it looks like russia is being sanctioned by the obama administration because it hasn't invaded ukraine. the bahman ministration and nato and the you are concerned that russia has been violating the international border between russia and ukraine in supplying weapons and i'm applying other assistance to the insurgents and so it's a bit of a punishment but it's more to turn there's still us here that russia will try and repeat the what appear to have been successful military operations in in georgia
and now crimea in parts of eastern your crane and so the sanctions are almost designed as a warning that if war were to follow then more more severe sanctions would fall but the moment the sanctions are limited they are designed to put the russian government or position hurting putin's allies but not put himself for example but for the most part i think there are moderate and corresponding to what is mentally the line here in washington which is that russia has behaved aggressively in these areas and there's fear that the further russian aggression ok well i can't for the life of me to go back and i cannot i can't see how the word aggression can be used because again part of the narrative in the west is that there was a forced military force takeover in camp that never is even mentioned by reuters it's all they say is you know code which left ok go ahead brian here because if she was going to intervene militarily it probably would have done so a long time and the longer it waits the more likelihood the regime in camp is going
to collapse go ahead brian yes and also if you can look at the actual events with objective faculty you can't but notice that the russian government's position has been very very cautious very prudent attempting to in many ways this dance itself from those who are calling for it to give even more aid and then attempt not to have a larger and larger confrontation and no matter what the russian government does to cool. all the tensions to not inflame it to ask as putin did to the upper house of the russian government to to rescind the resolution giving them the earth giving him the authority to use russian forces in the ukraine no matter what russia does the united states keeps pushing the angulo because they can't really successfully suppress the greve is a population that is up in arms against the kiev government in the eastern part of ukraine so it's not russia it's and the sanctions are not modest the sanctions are
the beginning i think they will fail ultimately but they are a signal that the united states has given up on any sort of detente rope rapprochement and is opting out for a prolonged period of intense confrontation with russia not because of russian aggression but because russia or the people in east ukraine have failed to go along with the united states plan if you alexander you want to follow up on that because the more the government in kiev fails or or fails to achieve its goals the more russia is blamed for it it's kind of interesting. it's not any interesting if you actually look at the situation it is utterly bizarre the russians have made it absolutely clear that they're not going they're not interested in annexing any part of the eastern ukraine and it's a complete scare crow and anybody looking at the situation objective we can see that on the contrary they have been making a major diplomatic push for weeks to trying to negotiate
a settlement of the problem. there was an agreement made in geneva in geneva on the seventeenth of april to that effect which the russians pushed there was an agreement on the second of july to that effect which the russians pushed both of those agreements committed the ukraine to a cease fire and in a constitutional negotiations with the people in the east the ukrainians have refused to do that as the french and german foreign ministers have admitted and yet preposterously the who goes off and sanctions russia for it the reality of course is that it is the united states that is actually egging on the situation and which is escalating it and when it isn't working it does its usual reflex which is blame russia richard we know there seems to be a growing difference here between the americans and the europeans because the europeans are found out to put a shameful can say yes on the telephone and then he puts the receiver down he
changes his mind and continues to push forward i just have to wonder did he talk to victoria nuland after he talked to the europeans big question. well. i don't know but i do there all the time we have been calling some go ahead richard go ahead so i think some of the european some of the europeans are more reluctant than ministration to put in more sanctions that's not true with all of them i mean i think that the germans the french and the british pretty much aligned with the u.s. . but and of course the european countries the former soviet bloc countries are pretty much supporter are concerned about what might happen some of the other countries perhaps more just like italy a little less directly involved are somewhat on comfortable with the way directions things are going so it's true the bomb instructions had to push some of the europeans take a hard on ok brian it's kind of interesting you can make all those decisions in an
air conditioned office with inside the beltway but this is where we live in this part of the world here i mean again if we see that washington is constantly pushing their appointed one the what their favorite one in kim to use more and more violence and it's not working these that military machine is lose their defecting right now i mean i have to wonder what's going through washington's mind right now their plan is failed they have to start thinking about a plan b. well you know president obama has said you know if every problem appears to be a nail then you know the hammer is the only solution but as if he's moving away from that policy but in fact the united states is addicted i would say addicted in its foreign policy to a militarized solution to almost all problems and if you look back and started again as we have many many times but this whole crisis was precipitated by a coup d'etat using armed forces who in the case of the february twenty second cool
were neo nazis and that didn't matter to the united states it didn't matter because they saw an opportunity they hadn't thought it through just as the they didn't think it through with the iraq invasion they thought hey we can do this we can do it because we have military superiority at the moment but then afterwards all of the unintended consequences appear and again the united states has no real solution so what do they do they resort to the military solution that allows all the politicians to thump their chest and look and look big and bad and they don't pay any price they don't pay any consequence of the suffering and the bleeding in the un somewhere else and they they can go around and say see we're being tough with russia it's reckless it's criminal it's irresponsible ultimately it's anti human ok alexander well one minute before we go to the break go ahead jump in. yes very very quickly. the the reason this crisis is escalating is because there is no
analogous pressure on the ukrainians to sit down the poroshenko government to sit down and to negotiate poroshenko makes all kinds of agreements exactly as you said he then completely disregards them he's encouraged to pursue military solutions by washington and there is no pressure from the europeans or from the americans for him to fulfill the promises he has made the precious suddenly is always on the russians to restrain their outlaw is when the situation for the regime in kiev starts to deteriorate as it is now i suspect we're going to see over the next few days another push for a cease fire resign because things are going wrong the only interest in a ceasefire from the west is precisely when things we can all right i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with our.
marinating in the financial world. to talk to seems to comment and not stop it is a very funny take no demand to credit not going to get any economic benefit in life there are absolutely and there i'm hot. please. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the stalemate on the ground in ukraine.
ok richard back to you in washington how much is ukraine just a political football i mean you know obama and the democrats they have been elections coming up you know and obama can be you know they say that he has to be tough here you know with that big bad brush of the bear is active again all this nonsense that comes out in mainstream media there how much of it is really all about that and now we're really what people say russian aggression rebuilding the soviet union and all that other nonsense and just to look tough. i think there is genuine concern among the bomb instruction people who i mean they way their relationship with russia is going and they were surprised by and it turns out what happened in crimea was unexpected and are still some puzzling over why that situation of all the it's i think there's just a genuine concern on their part about what might happen in the future and they're
trying to perhaps reestablish red lines that they fear will weaken because of the president's response over syria and other issues. in more broadly it's not a major political issue i mean there are a couple who will say well mitt romney was right about russia and so on but for the most part it's not been that salient in american domestic politics or just a bunch of other issues as we just talked about many competing in the media space and foreign policy and then there's all the domestic issues particularly now the crisis over the immigrants from central america and all sorts of problems that could economy and so on so i wouldn't wait that to have really i think this is a serious concern about the a bomb in russia people they didn't they misinterpret it or even presidents handle the russian portfolio in the first in the first term ok richard i think i'm going to go to brian i think you're being very very generous
they're very generous brian with you know we didn't expect this to happen with you with crimea might my goodness you go when you overthrow the constitutional government of another country through force and you didn't expect that the country could fall apart i mean this is the kind of caliber of people that are in washington doing russia. right i have to agree but also disagree with richard on this yes it's a very big political football there's a talk about the dysfunctionality of the u.s. government but the dysfunctionality is all from the ultra right the militarist those who are constantly egging the obama administration to to engage in more and more military confrontations and war and to break off all contact with russia but there's also the fact that they did not. see it coming that crimea and that russia would do anything to stop their illegitimate armed counter. on february twenty first i mean this is ridiculous and stupid on the part of the
u.s. state department because yes they recklessly overthrow a sovereign government yes they do it with a knowing that this has to be perceived in russia as the greatest threat given the fact that the black sea fleet is in crimea and that the people in the east in crimea would then want to affiliate with russia they didn't see any of that but they have not seen it and recklessly caused it to happen it wouldn't have happened without their precipitous actions they then blame russia for allowing that to happen i mean it is both things it's a political football and it's stupid and it's ridiculous and shows the shallowness of u.s. foreign policy the only thing the u.s. has going for him is a lot of money for military goods but in terms of in terms of a foreign policy that makes sense even for their own imperial interests not their you know you know alexander for a few days before the recording of this program here. and gauge some of my critics and i had one simple question for them when did russia invade ukraine and
there's this silence well it's a long silence and then i say well you know i say can can you think about i mean i read it all the time you even say it in your writings but can you tell me the day it happened. well it's no surprise there's never an answer is it hasn't. it of course not because it hasn't happened and nor is it going to happen this is a domestic ukrainian crisis it has been so all along there's been massive interference from outside but that outside is not russia it is in fact as has been discussed here the us and some of its european friends who interfered in ukrainian politics and overthrew the legitimate democratic will democrats elected constitutional government of the ukraine and the fact that they did not expect that there would be a reaction both from russia and within the ukraine itself towards that frankly
beggars belief now if i can just come back to a point you made i think there will be major political implications domestically for obama is things go wrong if there is a political collapse in the ukraine which is entirely possible then i think that will be very severe repercussions in washington for the president who presides over that debacle and when we hear about red lines being drawn i think these red lines are as much basically to protect the reputation of the obama administration than they are for any other purpose certainly more to than to deter russia which is not there which is not aggressive so there is no reason to deter it you know richard you know people that have studied ukraine and know its economy and its international relationships and russia has made this very clear over and over again is that it has to be very much part of the solution to what's going on in ukraine just for the very reason of trade and then you know our human contacts here let's
not forget about the refugees i think they probably want to go home but the way the obama administration reacts is that it's always after table but that's part of the equation in that you know one could have their opinion of lot of mere putin russia's foreign policy and we're not here to discuss that particular issue today but russia is part of the equation why can't the obama administration you know it meant that. i wouldn't put it as negatively if you have i think people here understand that there is no enduring solution to the ukraine crisis ukraine situation if it's an example to russia as you mention the economic lincolns very tight their people the people relations it's very close russia has local military superiority and ukraine is not going to join nato anytime soon so you really do need russian acquiescence as
a minimum support ideally for any enduring solution to crane's. you know what we want to see is a prosperous sovereign ukraine people understand that it's not a focus of the current dialogue since that's something that i mean the main fear at the moment is just there are going to be further instability which might result in russian stations or aggression what have you here and you know we argued about whether this is true or not and in any case that is the concern and i think that over time people understand that russia has to be part of the solution and i also want to point out that we've been a little bit too black and white in our patrol of the relationship russia and the u.s. we're been in solitary in the iranian nuclear talks we've been together and the situation in korea in gaza and so on i don't see russia trying to be an outlier i thought i'd suspect that there's going to be u.n. security council involvement at some level with russia in the us same side so i
think we don't want to overdramatize the situation the crisis in ukraine has been a bit contained in the relationship and it's not the entire relationship because of the fact as you were implying you know russia is the mere important player in the world and so we in the us understand has to deal with it you know brian when it when i look at victoria new i just go ahead jump in go ahead go ahead brian. yeah i just i just don't think that's real i think that putin said in his remarks about sanctions that the that the sanctions are not only harmful to u.s. and russian relations they're harmful to american interests and he made the point they're driving russian american relations into a dead end and that's what's happened this isn't temporary this is going to be a long term shift the russian government's orientation after two thousand and one was to try to have a consolidated enduring long term sort of partnership partly competitive but mainly
a partnership with the united states the united states has severed that possibility right now and then and the obama administration which if any if you look at the political forces might have been the one most apt they have such an orientation they've given up on it and so you see we are entering a new era it's not korea it's not because it's not a run that goes asian there's going to be a long term u.s. russian confrontation not because russia is aggressive but because the nature of u.s. foreign policy has driven russia into the position of being a permanent targeted country why because i think russia in defense of even its own narrow national interest becomes and it's made it clear now an obstacle to the inherent expansionism of u.s. foreign policy which poses a grave threat to russia and to china and to other countries that seek to be independent the large countries in particular well that's a great topic for another program alexander frango to you who's calling the shots and can't just put it shan't go as strong as he thinks he is because i still worry
about his thuggish friends if i can use my own words demanding results from him he's not getting them he could have his days numbered. i think if you actually look at the political set up in kiev it's quite obvious that missed the poroshenko is not in control there and that he is one player in a very unstable and very unruly coalition if you go back to what happened in february and march a national unity government as it was called was set up it was announced in my done square since poroshenko came to power that same national unity government has remained almost unchanged and it's quite clear to me that the people who really drive the strategies of the people who have the guns and the people who have the guns are drawn overwhelmingly from very right wing very extremist very radical very dangerous people who like mr powell will be mr yarrow with their national guard
their right sector and frankly they are not interested in compromise and they've already made that very clear to poroshenko itself himself and that is a major constraint on his actions the only way he could overcome them in my opinion if he wanted to which i'm not sure he does by the way would be if he had support from the europeans and the americans to do so and that is not forthcoming or a gentleman will run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks to my guest in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. the we've only.
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of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem to try and rational debate and a real discussion critical issues facing america to find ready to join the movement then welcome to the big picture. i'm happy martin the stories we cover here not been here in iraq other big story the extra headlines and talk there's a reason they don't want to know about you know are important in general praise that we should all be completely outraged now let's break the set. i would bet that and i think a site that i think corporation kind of can go. through and see the bank and all that all about money and i'm actually sick for politicians write the laws and wait for tax rate. coming up.
here in just two. days. that. was going to break in a set time abby martin so yesterday the world witnessed a truly horrific tragedy unfolding in eastern ukraine malaysian airliner was shot down killing two hundred ninety eight human beings on board one of the passengers were humanitarians on their way to an aids conference in australia unfortunately the media coverage from all sides has been truly truly disappointing for the now as the sun immediately declared the missile as putin's and neo cons were given a platform across corporate media to seize upon the tragedy and resurrect cold war fervor urging the west to quokka.